Hi people. ..What do you think of these questions, should I be leary? "So do you do full body massage?" "Is there anything else about your massage I should know?" Is that secret code for "do you do happy endings." Also why wouldn't I do full body massage. Is that code for" FULL BODY(genitals)" massage? Let me know what you think...Sometimes I'm just not sure.
posted by:
Joy
offline Joy
Massachusetts
  • P.S. I wrote an ad recently in CL that I saw myself as a massage artist and that the persons body is my canvas in which I create. A guy emailed stating that my ad insinuated that I do happy endings. I am an artist god damn it and I deserve respect! I feel just because my philosophy is quite different than the clinical massage I get viewed differently. I know some people are just unaware of the spiritual side of it...even so I'm frustrated. Anyways that one guy emailed me, asked about HE and then called me before I had a chance to read his message. He was really passive on the phone soooo...I was nervous. I then proceeeded to check my email and found that...I was appalled and called him back and cancelled. I feel like crying at times, because I love what I do, but I wonder at times if men are ever gonna take massage serious in our culture. This is why I use draping...
    • perhaps in disassociating yourself from the therapy side of massage, specifically with the 'massage artist' phrase, you're indirectly calling yourself out as someone that is open to 'happy endings' - after all, artists are typically more free form and less hung up on conventional practices. i've never before heard the term 'massage artist', and can see how it might make prospective clients unclear as to what your modality might be and what services you might offer

      this, obviously, is not your intent, but that could be how this specific person read it

      my thought, be very clear in your wording, and specifically TELL your clients in the ad that there will be no sexual contact - that lets them know from the getgo that you'll not go there
      • Don't take it personally. CL is just creepy like that sometimes. People go on there looking for sex. Everything looks like food to a starving person, ya know? Keep your ad as is, just screen your calls carefully and tell them exactly what kind of massage you do over the phone.
        I had a guy call me from CL last week saying he was "just looking for a nice girl to talk to". I told him I was a massage therapist, not a therapist. I got no calls all week from my ad, then got 5 on Friday when I was already booked and hadn't posted since Wednesday. Nobody was willing to move to another day. So I worked myself to the bone on Friday and had Tues and Weds totally off. C'est la vie!
      • Wait a minute you sound like that guy...freaky. Artist does not imply hand job. Well... we should all be called artists as we are helping to create love, healthy minds and bodies.
        • While I understand where you're coming from - and fully agree that artist does not imply hand job, the general public may not see things so cut and dry - especially the public that desires 'happy endings', who are the ones that will look for ANY code word within the ad that sets the practitioner apart from the crowd - in the case of your ad, artist could be seen as such.

          Wanting to be seen as different from the crowd - in this case the therapy crowd - will draw different attention to you. Sometimes that attention is exactly what we desire, however, sometimes it also draws the less desirables out of the woodwork.

          as to sounding like that guy - that was intentional as 'role playing'. I was attempting to 'read' this as one of that type would....looking for anything that sets a tone other than 'normal'.

          Hope this helps some.
    • Hi Joy. Unfortunately, as long as prostitution and sexual massage is illegal in your community, you're going to have clients feeling you out to see if you offer those services or not.

      If those services were legalized, practioners of those arts could openly advertise their special modalities and clients looking for those services could spare you the trouble you seem to be having.

      Lets organize ourselves to over turn laws that create victimless crimes in our community so we can advance an agenda of personal responsiblity instead of government intrusion, and I'm sure you'd see alot of those clients diverted to other providers... :)
  • Then ask what they mean.

    Or say something like "I do non-sexual massage. What areas do you want to have worked on?"

    Or in your ad say something like "Do you enjoy feeling sexually frustrated? If so, visit me for a massage - when you leave you'll be even more sexually frustrated, and the rest of you will feel better, too!"

    If I were to ask about full body it would mean "more than my neck and back", as some folks don't do legs (for example).

    This can be as simple as "four agreements" stuff.

    H
    • Haha H- Man that was fucking hilarious. Thanks for the laugh. Oh yea Molly most are looking for sex. I wish more of my broke ass musician friends would get bodywork. That business is a gold mine with all their sore backs, screwed up rhomboids and terrible sleeping patterns. I even made a hell of a special for them on myspace. Oh yes artist...less conservative, not so constricting, but NOT A PROSTITUTE! My ad was legit and honest. I always state non sexual, never matters though. Screening is my middle name.
    • Craigslist is the eternal trailer park. . .
      Paraphrasing the words of James Carville. . .
      "You never know what you will find when you drag a hundred dollars through a trailer park."
      also I might ad
      when posting on Craigslist you get what you pay for. . .
      On the bright side your great website will be a bulwark against the barbarian hordes on CL. And sometimes you can get good and decent clients off of Craigslist.
      • well my dear Zeke...I've paid hundreds of dollars in advertising elsewhere, not one call. However...my website does help a bit...
        • No I think craigslist is great. It just can be a real challange at times. And it is never suprising when a difficult client "pops up" off of CL. . . and yes "full body" is code---as is unfortunately things relating to asian massage. I think your point gets into a broader issue of there not being great internet based advertising sites for women therapist. Out here in the Bay and nationwide males, such as myself, who work with gays have a pleathora of great choices. I think, perhaps, 10 years from now this will change and there will be such sites. But the web is still a teenager. Consumers are just starting to look for things like massage on it. In the meantime have you tried massageanywhere.com that is the closest that I can think of as a good site for women to get clients on the web. . .
          • I recently put myself on massageanywhere.com and I may have booked 3 massages from there in only a week! Very exciting....
            I know it ggets tiresome screening CL clients, but I have had some awesome clients from CL. You just have to move through the crazies. If you do massage, people sometimes treat you like you're a prostitute. In many jobs, people sometimes treat you like you're a slave. It all comes around in the end. I wish more hip cats would get massage as well. I actually have some really cool clients...I'm just holding out for universal enlightenment in 2012. Maybe we should start a thread and post our CL ads and start critiquing them, are you open?
            • Oh man Shirley McClaine wrote a book about the 2012 thing. I love her..interested in knowing more about what she has to say. Oh Zeke... gonna watch Harold and Maude soon. I love you guys...best tribe ever... I wish you all lived closer. We could do a mass bodywork session lol. Freakin Bay being all expensive and shit...ahhh!
          • I do think people are more comfortable now using the internet for inquiring about and booking a massage, but I would not expect that this will a 'big' thing. Word of mouth and personal connection will always be the tried and true way to get clients.

            Instead of using Craigslist to advertise directly, why not use it more for networking? Advertise an open house or free information session. Give an informal talk on the merging of art and bodywork, whatever. The pervs will glance right over this but potential customers in your neighborhood will pay attention.

            Finally, boundaries begin with the first contact. There should be no gray zone what so ever in your message. You don't need to be clinically oriented to state that your services are non-sexual.

            Good Luck
  • If you are advertising, I would assume that any questions about full body are probably trying to get at sexual things. Any questions about what you look like or what you will be wearing would bring up red flags for me. Absolutely questions about their own draping and clothing need to be answered very clearly that the massage is completely non-sexual and that any requests will mean that they will pay the price. Anything wishy-washy in here WILL give these guys the wrong idea.

    You have to remember that a lot of these guys have 1) gotten extras from a "straight" massage therapist 2) found that sex workers advertise as "straight" massage therapists because of a lack of appropriate resources or to try and protect themselves. There are also some guys out there for which it is almost a conquest game. They have to try every new sex worker and they want sex as cheaply as they can get it.. They may even have a list or a website that they report back to. There are several that I know of www.sfredbook.com and www.theeroticreview.com (maybe also one called bigdog.com or bigdog.net?)
    • Funny enough, I have several friends who are very successful bay area dakinis. One of them was a therapeutic therapist for YEARS before caving in. She says that she was hassled way more as a therapeutic therapist....guys pushing for more or wanting more for an extra $10 or whatnot. That it is a boundary game and they're playing you and all you can do is say no and don't be afraid to end the session and ask them to leave. She says that once she started doing sensual massage her life became much easier since it is cut and dry, the price is pre-arranged, etc. She says she actually feels safer doing sensual since nobody pushes her boundaries anymore. Kinda sad, huh?
      • Wow, that is not my experience with sensual massage. Some guys will still ask for more and they will still be cheap no matter what you are offering...others will be super respectful and never cross a line.

        If she requires references for her clients there is no reason to feel unsafe, otherwise I don't get why she would feel safer ?!

        What I find makes my life easier is finding ways to get clients without advertising (as suggested above).
        • My massage is always read as sensual. I suppose in a way it is. Isn't all massage? I mean we're rubbing naked bodies. I use lots of long strokes similar to Lomi Lomi, probably Esalen too. I use midline draping. The thing is you wouldn't ask your doctor for a hand job. We're muscle doctors, so what's the difference. I suppose the difference is those misrepresenting the profession that give the ethical MT's bad rep's. Yea... I'd probably allow nude, but not many have proved I can trust them. The ones that I trust aren't concerned about draping as much as the quality of massage. Here's the thing, I feel sorry for those who don't have partners to complete them. If they did they'd be getting a massage for healing, not sex. Then there are the few that are so gone from ONE that are straight up pigs, and not looking to change. I guess it's just about getting smarter, being aware of red flags, being clear about what you offer, and allow.
          • I dunno sex, touch, feelings...human. We're sexual beings. I guess I just get different things from massage, a healing experience. Never ever did I think about sex, far from it. Haha... I am an Aquarius Sun with Aquarius in Venus...sex is a spiritual experience, not so much physical. Perhaps males are different. How about you male therapists? What were your reactions at first to bodywork...anything "raise" up?
            • When I first began doing massage I was actually a little surprised that sexual thoughts and feelings just didn’t come up. In fact, I tried a few times to give my Honey a “special” massage but once I started working I just ended up falling into that Heart space and all thoughts of sexual activity sort of melted away. When I work I experience deep feelings of Love, compassion and yes, even pleasure but it just doesn’t fall into the realm of sex. Joy commented that massage is sensual and I agree wholeheartedly. Sensuality and sex are completely separate experiences – it’s too bad that our society doesn’t understand that and encourage more touch when we’re growing up. I have a feeling that there would be far fewer pervs out there if children were taught how to express themselves through touch and there was a little more focus on the healthy expression of our sexuality.

              I can’t imagine what it must be like to be asked to perform sexual favors; it has never come up for me so I'm not sure how I'd handle it exactly. Ultimately though, we’re providing a much needed service to the world and part of that service is to educate people – every time you have to tell someone that touch doesn’t equal sexual release, you’re planting a seed. Chances are that most people won’t have an epiphany on the spot, but if even one person takes what you said to Heart and makes that shift, you’ve accomplished something wonderful…Our world is already changing one person at a time and even pervs are capable of waking up so keep the faith.
          • Uhm, well saying "sensual massage" specifically means providing a "happy ending" or "finish", so even if it seems to fit your work on some other level, you should probably never really use it to describe your work.
            • I don't useit ..the U.S. is much to ignorant to understand it yet.
              • This guy sucks. Uggg..shit makes me disappointed. Why..why...why?

                hometown.aol.com/kirkinsan...ofile.html
                • I don't understand why you have a problem with this. He is being pretty clear about what he is offering...that is a good thing. If this were legal and everyone had ads like this, then people wouldn't have to be so smarmy about it and there wouldn't be a big confusion about straight MT's
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
                    He should be charging more as well....
                    I'm with DeAnna, as long as he's not posting in the therapeutic section! I wish people wouldn't post erotic massage in therapeutic....and the ridiculous, racist connotation of Asian massage with Asian slave trade prostitution. It would be nice to be able to post that you practice "Asian style" massage without people mistaking your ad....and my poor Asian MT friends who are squished into a racist corner of pathetic stereotypes born from wars.
                    • Well I stand firm by my opinion. He's clearly giving the massage world the wrong idea. I mean come on, "horny", hung" all sex words. He's looking to give sex and get it. He also did post in therapeutic section I forgot where I saw it, San Diego I think. Anyways the San Diego CL screams sex. It's just disheartening when people are offering sexual favors when massage is not about that. Even the professionals where I worked before were giving happy endings in San Diego. I guess it just frustrates me. 90% of my CL clients are looking for sex. I just want to give honest to god facilitated healing and relaxation. One of my clients stated to me once while receiving "I don't come to get off, wouldn't pay for that, I come for healing, that's why I pay you." He rocked made it all worth it...I miss him. Haven't seen him in awhile. He was a CL client too. Also the other day a client called from CL and said he loved his massage, felt great for days after. Made me smile and not want to throw my table out the window.
                      • Yea the whole Asian massage thing is weird...I dunno. It's to bad for the professional asian MTs, must be hard. How did that start anyways? How come asians? Now with Dakinis their massage is different. It's not sexual as much sensual and beautiful. It connects more with spirit. It's the straight up, rawl, non connected, physical, empty, just for kicks sexual massage I have a hard time with. Like I stated before I don't have a problem with nude massage when it connects to spirit, but how many are looking for that really? I've given and received from several of my friends nude massage, was beautiful every time. I love them, they love me...we are one. Great things happen, and we don't always necessarily start of nude.
                        • I wish I could find it now, but there used to be an ad in Oakland for these Asian chicks dressed in sexy nurse outfits in the therapeutic section.
                          I think massage is very popular in Asian countries and that's well-known. It's often taught in families.
                          I also think a lot of people get their way paid into this country by people who then keep them as indentured servants where they have to make so much money to pay their way in....as is well-advertised on the SF buses. (Do you know someone who is working against their will?)
                          I think massage is an easy job for people who don't speak English well or who don't have green cards.
                          When you have someone who needs to make money fast and can't legally work, it's easy to exploit them.
                          Add into this the reputation of Asian women built from soldiers in Vietnam and WWII...the American male fantasy of the submissive Asian girl.
                          Check this photo
                          sfbay.craigslist.org/sby/ths...636.html
                          of course, she could be totally legit, but she sure is profiting from stereotypical fantasies.
                          • Geez maybe I should say I'm asian then when men get here, they'll be like "what, you're white"? Then I'll say, "oh I'm only like 10% asian."
                            Wouldn't that be a riot, really throw them. That'll learn em... It's just all so messed up what people have to do for money, to bad. I really do empathize with those seeking a more free life in another country. Our soldiers really fucked up those poor women from vietnam, it's disgusting how they exploited them. Control is an ugly thing...
                            • One of my best friends and one of the most amazing MTs I've ever had the pleasure of receiving work from is half Japanese and very attractive. She has some ridiculous stories of racism she's been exposed to.....even from people who are theoretically "conscious" or who run in circles where they should know better.
                              I really feel a lot of it stems from wars, and Americans disempowering the people in the places we're conquering. Hence we get the "servile Vietnamese prostitute" imagery that is so popular in our movies. I wonder why we don't have any of that from Iraq yet....but maybe it's just those middle eastern girls are more likely to starve to death than let themselves be exploited by our soldiers?
                              I guess a fantasy is a fantasy.
                              If I were Asian and advertising on craigslist, I doubt I would post a photo, or mention my race.
                              Then again, I don't post a photo or mention my race now just because I'm blonde and I don't want to attract people looking for a blonde. Maybe when I look like my mom I'll start posting photos. Maybe we should use key words that are more mom-like. I use "nurturing" a lot. "Feel yourself rocked in the arms of the great earth mama". "Feel your worries rocked away". If I were doing watsu I think I'd use things like that. To me, that's much more where my massage comes from, my maternal instincts.
                              • Yeup ditto Molly...I don't put a picture or describe myself as far as what I look like. Those people are clearly looking to convey or instigate other types of massage. Perhaps those asian girls are playing off the stereotype to make money. I stay true to my beliefs and i respect others. I just think there's therapeutic massage and erotic and each should be respected for what it's offering. Just because i may not agree with something gives me no right to decide what others are doing is wrong...I know this in my heart. I just want people to start posting in the right sections either therapeutic or erotic on CL. I suppose the right people will come to us...Everyone is looking for different things.
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    ...

                    Mon, April 28, 2008 - 1:28 PM
                    There shouldnt have to be a distinction between MTs who don't provide sexual services and those that do. The whole idea of having to call myself a 'straight massage therapist' is offensive. I've worked too hard for my license, practice and reputation to have it be taken for a sex service.

                    If your a prostitute call yourself one, if youre a massage therapist call yourself one, if you're and herbal healer call yourself one, if you're a used car salesman....etc. So then the problem becomes the title of prostitute, a person who recieves money or goods for sex, has become an ugly title, and in most places an illegal one.

                    Professions have names for clarity, if your profession is illegal you need to work on having the view of it changed, don't mask what you're doing behind my profession because now you are putting me in danger and I have a problem with that.
      • Wow, my stomach just turned. Thank her for putting therapists who won't down their boundries into even more danger.
        • Sorry, my previous post did not come up beneath the one it was a response to. I admittedly have a bug up my butt about MTs giving 'happy endings', 'finishing someone off' or giving 'tantric massage'

          I'm tired of being put in the position of having sexual experience practically expected from me, or having to defend my practice from assumtive ignorant people who in my area still equate it with prostitution.

          Worse yet is being the feeling of cornered at the end of a massage with the statement "Well so and so does it for me why not you". So yeah, thanks to all those people blurring the lines out there, they are on both sides of the table.

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